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Thrillhouse Van Houten
DIOS EX.
59
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Posted - 2013.04.10 00:24:00 -
[1] - Quote
While responding to the recent thread started by CCP Nullarbor regarding Corporation Tax, I once again found myself mulling over the "problem" of Starter fits usage by non-newbies.
While hardly a game breaker, it nonetheless does insidious work undermining the Risk vs. Reward nature of New Eden and will inevitably only serve to unbalance the fragile starting economy of Dust.
Currently, Starter fits exist as a free ride to anyone willing to play a mere Assault grunt. This is true for the clueless newbie and the paramount veteran alike. It shouldn't, though, in keeping with the principles of CCP, Eve and New Eden. These Starter fits not only allow several play styles to skate by on a free chassis but make those particular choice of play styles imbalanced with the others in the game. They also allow some players the ability to spend fractions of ISK (both initially and later) compared with others, who don't have the option of using a Starter fit to play in their chosen roles.
My proposal, then, is to make Starter fits available only to players in NPCs. Hear me out here...
In a metagame sense, the NPCs are paying players a contract fee to fight for them and, presumably, providing barebones fits for the clone Mercenaries to fight in. Why should these fits, meant for newbies to save them money and introduce them to a couple basic fittings, be free ad infinitum?
I say keep them free as long as the player is still in a NPC. Once the player joins a PC, they would then need to provide their own fittings at market value. I run a logistics fit that is 3500 ISK. I have the Exile BPO, mind you, but a Militia AR would make the whole outfit about 4k ISK. Hardly a bank breaker for even the greenest player. I would need to die 30 or more times per match for these lowbie fits to actually cost me a serious portion of my contract fee. What is the justification, then, for Starter fits if not cost?
In the incredibly unlikely event that a player runs out of money entirely while in a PC, they could either lean on their fellow Corpmates for a jump start OR simply rejoin a NPC for access to the free Starter fits, again.
There were two caveats with my plan. 1) NPCs would have a Corp tax to be determined at a fair value by CCP (I suggested 11%) and 2) there should be militia grades of every weapon and item available for purchase. In a metagame sense, again, these NPCs provide free fits and vehicles and they should incur some kind of returns on their investments.
At the end of the day, this would encourage new players to join PCs and it would teach them that nothing in Dust is free if they want to climb the ladder. They pay for their own fits once they are out on their own.
This idea came to me, but I should note that a very similar idea was being proposed by Kagehoshi Horned Wolf about a month ago in a New Player thread he started. |
Thrillhouse Van Houten
DIOS EX.
59
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 01:07:00 -
[2] - Quote
Ulysses Knapse wrote:No. We do not need more people in NPC corps. We simply do not.
Uh...what?
You think saving a couple thousand ISK per suit will keep people in NPC Corps? Even if they are paying a 11% or 15% tax to be in that NPC Corp?
That would mean a player that loses less than 5 suits a round would be making MORE money running militia gear in a PC than running Starter gear in a NPC...
Lets say both guys are losing 5 suits per match. Lets say they average about 200k ISK as their contract fee. Guy 1 is in the NPC with an 11% tax rate. Guy 2 is in a PC with a 3% tax rate.
Guy 1 doesn't pay a dime for his fit. He ends each match with 178k ISK (200k - 22k).
Guy 2 pays 2k per suit (plain, barebones militia assault suit). He ends each match with 184k ISK(200k - 6k[tax] - 10k[suits]).
So, unless these newbies are going 0/12 every single match, it can potentially pay more money to be in the PC Corp. If a guy is going 0/12 every single match, he probably doesn't belong in a most PCs anyways.
There are situations where a guy is probably paying much more than 2k per suit...but EVERYONE eventually pays a hell of a lot more than that. Why let people who know more about the game finesse dirt cheap fits using a Starter chassis? Make em pay for the MLT dropsuits like the system intends they should. |
Thrillhouse Van Houten
DIOS EX.
59
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 01:25:00 -
[3] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:Sorry but I have to agree with Ulysses here. It will just encourage players to stay in NPC corps. Besides, Eve Online still gives veteran players free newbie ships that have one mining laser and one turret fitted whenever they dock up in a pod in a station that has no ship regardless if they are in an NPC corp or player corp.
Keep in mind though that the newbie ships in Eve carry absolutely no value at all, can't be reprocessed to salvage minerals, and can't be sold on the market because they have no value. If you lose the ship you get no insurance either.
Again...with a tax rate attached to NPCs, the theory gets shot to hell.
A Starter Frontline fit certainly has a value. This isn't Eve, you can't reprocess dropsuit fits and sell the leavings. You can wear them onto the battlefield and you can certainly do serious damage in one. I kill people all the time with a standard AR. People in proto gear are harder to kill, but I still do it often enough. It is my choice to incur less cost for pumping out less damage and their choice to risk greater cost to pump out greater damage. I'm not incurring NO cost, though. A guy running a Starter fit IS incurring no cost.
Also, I'm not sure why you guys give a rat's ass if some newberry is in a PC versus a NPC? Does it matter more to you that you killed a guy from Expert Intervention versus DIOS EX? I mean, I killed many many people while in a NPC. I kill many many people in my PC. My KDR was better in Expert Intervention because I ran pure Assault and now I run Logistics. Why does it matter to YOU that I was in a NPC?
I, personally, stayed in a NPC for more than a month. The only reason I left was because I received a clearly personalized invitation to join my current Corp, not a form letter to sell out. Otherwise, I'd likely still be in Expert Intervention. Does that somehow bother other players that I stayed in my NPC? I just don't get why... |
Thrillhouse Van Houten
DIOS EX.
59
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 06:45:00 -
[4] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote:Don't use what you can't afford to lose.
New players - NPC Corp or not - can't afford to lose ANYTHING.
So.... don't play? Just because you joined a friend's Corp when you started? Or because you're part of a gaming clan that's moving into the game and want to actually show your colours? Good plan...
There are plenty of reasons - it fits the universe, BPOs become pay-to-win, people wanting to save their ISK will stick to player Corps just to gain profit instead of staying there to learn, and even a good player might have a few bad runs and end up in the red. Having a few cheap slightly-modded starter fits would allow a good player that little bit of a chance to start turning a profit again.
New players can play ONE MATCH and gain enough ISK to provide..30 or 40 militia fits. After 15 matches in a NPC, anyone who isn't spending what they don't have should be rolling in extra dough. Unless newbies are buying militia HAVs until they are broke after each battle, I don't see any REAL argument that suggests that they wouldn't be able to move up the gear tier ladder. I highly doubt that people's first notion upon entering the MQ for the first time is "oh, I better get out of my NPC." They probably want to play in their NPC awhile until they have a good head of steam. So let them do it with free fits. Fine. The one out of 50 guys that joins a PC right away...can play ONE MATCH and gain enough money to buy fits.
I'd love to see the experienced player that gets their ISK balance so low that they can't fit 4 or 5 militia fits. I can see a guy running a deficit for awhile. Its certainly happened to me. Bad string of games using expensive gear. Never have I come anywhere close to not affording a militia fit. Come on...4k ISK a fit. MAYBE 20k ISK in losses in one match and then...boom, a 180k ISK increase. After one match.
You can learn and spend ISK at the same time. Usually both occur anyways. You can't seriously expect me to believe that everyone out there wouldn't stay in a good Corp to learn because they had to pay for militia fits. I joined a PC and have done more teaching than learning.
And HOW, do you propose, the notion of FREE STARTER GEAR FOR LIFE fits with the Eve Universe? At all? In ANY way? I've played Eve for two and a half years and I have never received any free ships outside of my original Ibis. How does free fits for guys with 6million SP fit the Eve universe? Its a handout...which is exactly contrary to the creedo of Risk vs. Reward that CCP eschews.
The MLT BPO argument is the first thing anyone has mentioned that actually might stand on its own. I still don't agree. You could say that all AUR gear is p2w then. If you paid for your BPO...then you paid for it. End of discussion. That is how it works. If you paid for your "Burnstalk" LR or your "Neo Type II" suits or any of the other AUR gear, you are flirting with p2w. A guy with more SP and ISK can still come along and wreck your day. Hell, a guy without more SP and ISK could still come along and wreck your day. If someone is willing to pay real money for BPOs rather than ISK on MLT gear...more power to them. Isn't that how the whole AUR system works? Pay real money, get a leg up?
It is almost funny to me how against this idea you guys are... I wasn't expecting a ticker tape parade, but all these people shouting HTFU from the rooftops have gone on vacation or something... |
Thrillhouse Van Houten
DIOS EX.
59
|
Posted - 2013.04.10 07:22:00 -
[5] - Quote
Ulysses Knapse wrote:Sure, you'll make more money in a Player-Owned Corporation... If they don't have a high tax rate. Even then, what if you go broke? Are they forced to leave the corp, or are you going to force players to beg for money so they can buy Militia gear? EVE prepares for that. If you go broke, you get a rookie ship that you can do low-level PVE or mine with. Sure, it is an unlikely scenario, but still.
Its your choice to join a Corp with a high tax rate...completely and utterly...knowing full well what you are joining when you join. You can't complain that your Corp with the 45% tax rate means you might run out of money someday because you always have the option of going to a Corp with a 0% rate or a 4% rate.
You guys are all bringing up what Eve has like it is a perfect correlation. It isn't. "...you get a rookie ship that you can do low-level PvE or mine with." Dust doesn't have low level PvE (Soon tm) or mining. I took 5k ISK in Eve and turned it into 500 million ISK in 3 weeks just sitting in Jita 4/4 in my pod. A friend of mine took 5k ISK and turned it into 1 billion ISK in 3 weeks. Good freaking luck doing that in Dust. My point is, there is only one way to gain money in Dust at current and it relies solely on having fittings. I see new avenues for gaining ISK in the future, but most of them will require fittings as well (all but trading gear for profit).
You even admit that the scenario is unlikely. I propose that not only is it unlikely, but would only ever happen if someone was TRYING to make it happen. MLT fits are just so cheap that I don't ever see anyone who has figured Dust out enough to join a PC EVER getting that low on ISK. They'd have to be trying. I started an alt back in early Feb. She was a DS pilot. I bought the expensive skills and MLT DSs and almost ran her out of money. I still ran MLT fits on her because I wanted to have two equipment slots for triage AND reviving...and I still never got so low on cash that I couldn't pay for more fits. That was a DS pilot making the barest minimum of ISK income from pub matches.
Just look at it systemically, then. Imagine every single fit you've ever used. Imagine all the Starters you've burned through. Now, imagine if there were no Starters and you'd burned through MLT fits. Multiply that by the thousands of players of Dust. Can you fathom how much money is being robbed out of the economy by Starter fits and BPOs? How systemically unhealthy that must be and WILL BE when CCP finally decides to open the market? I shudder to think... |
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